Building the new Bridge (76%) frame ?

[Racer88]

Of COURSE the complaints are about time. Nobody has to use the word 'time'. "I can't remove this rear grid." Why not, is blended in with carbide dust, harder than a jeweler's file? Of COURSE the complaint is that it will take TOO LONG or TOO MUCH EFFORT to safely remove that webbing.

Sorry... disagree. The complaint I have seen repeatedly is that they are unable to remove the grid without damaging the surrounding structures... due primarily to difficult ACCESS, especially the bottom / deeper sections.

But who here truly believes that given fifteen days in a locked room with literally nothing else to do, any of these frames couldn't be completed even 1TQ by hand by shaving-out .010-inch at a time?

I'm going to say this, risking pissing off some people (but not really any of the known builders here)... You could give some of the hamfisted "builders" a YEAR, and they'll STILL fuck it up. Yes, I do believe that many are simply in a hurry. And they MIGHT be able to get a better result if they just slowed down. Or not.

Shit, some of these folks can't address the original P80 frames without doing this.

I think you misinterpreted my comments about the braces as an objection to them or agreeing with a rule forbidding them... Simply because I reported what I have observed in terms of their use in actual practice.

Down here, a TON of people have braced AR-based pistols. And I DO mean a TON. If I go to the local range, there will be MANY people there with them. It would be easier to count who DIDN'T have one.

100% of them are shouldering them. Not 99%. 100%. That's a simple fact of what I've seen with my own eyes.

The other simple fact is that I object to the NFA in its entirety. It is my strongly held and constitutionally-supported position that the 2A affirms our Right to keep and bear ANY and ALL man-portable arms. The NFA should be rescinded.

But, yeah... I've probably seen hundreds of braced pistols in use. I've never seen one used as an actual forearm brace. 100% of them are used as shoulder stocks. And I believe they should be able to use ACTUAL shoulder stocks on them.

 

[Stephen G]

I hope so.


I haven't seen any complaints specifying the TIME that it takes. From what I'm seeing, it's a matter of whether they can actually DO it successfully. I've not seen "TIME" mentioned.... ever.


I hear ya. People have laughed at me for taking many hours to complete frame finishing. After 5 builds, it still takes me 2 - 3 hours JUST to do the RSA channel. But it's not a chore. I enjoy it. The process is a big part of the experience. That's why folks like us do it over and over. Even more... I enjoy the RESULT.

Laugh at me now!
View attachment 10133

And my builds work!

But, yeah... our culture is one that expects instant gratification. That ship has LONG since sailed.

I grew up building R/C (radio controlled) boats. Tunnel hull hydroplanes, specifically. It took weeks to build them. I had to epoxy glue the sprue framework. Then I had to curve the outer wood components with steam. I had to install the servos and make pushrod connections to the nitro-methane powered outboard engine. Now people just buy them ready to go. And most are frickin' electric now. Booooooring!

LOL!! Yea I still build balsa framed rubberband powered airplanes.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

The majority of people using braces are not handicapped and use them as a stock.

Because we (gun owners who had RCPs, sub guns or PCCs with braces) don't like some of the NFA regs doesn't change the fact that a majority of non handicapped people used braces as a stock. It's patently ridiculous to deny this. The ATF have to enforce the law no matter how illogical a law may be. Congress passed the NFA.

The answer is not to get pissed off at people who point out the truth about braces. That energy is better spent petitioning lawmakers to strike or change the ridiculous classification of SBR in the NFA. Silencers as well. That regulation of cans makes even less sense to me than that for SBRs.

The ATF has every right to look at photos and videos posted online of people shouldering braces. It's called evidence and law enforcement is obligated to collect it. I have better idea than not talking about Fight Club. I believe the brace issue was resurrected by people arrogantly posting videos and photos of using braces as stocks. To wit ... In your face, ATF. As Dr. Phil says, How did that work out? Let's put the blame where it belongs. People who could not resist the temptation to poke the bear. There was no public outcry about banning braces. Non gun owners had no idea what a brace was. I believe the injury was self inflicted by certain members of the gun community provoking the ATF.

I say quit supporting online firearm jackassery or taunting regulators like spoiled children. Being adult is better plan if you ask me.

Responsible gun owners are law abiding citizens. That is fundamental to being an American. They are not members of some imaginary 'resistance'. One either believes in our system of government and the Constitution or they don't. There will always be unfair or badly written law and we have a system for changing it. I have traveled all over the world and haven't come across a better system yet. But I am always ready to be enlightened by someone who has found it.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

LOL!! Yea I still build balsa framed rubberband powered airplanes.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGqezGJmtk8

My Dad loved building balsa airplanes. Then there's this guy. Imagine him building a pistol from a 76% frame.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

Sorry... disagree. The complaint I have seen repeatedly is that they are unable to remove the grid without damaging the surrounding structures... due primarily to difficult ACCESS, especially the bottom / deeper sections.



I'm going to say this, risking pissing off some people (but not really any of the known builders here)... You could give some of the hamfisted "builders" a YEAR, and they'll STILL fuck it up. Yes, I do believe that many are simply in a hurry. And they MIGHT be able to get a better result if they just slowed down. Or not.

Shit, some of these folks can't address the original P80 frames without doing this.
View attachment 10137View attachment 10138View attachment 10139View attachment 10140View attachment 10141View attachment 10142
View attachment 10143

I think you misinterpreted my comments about the braces as an objection to them or agreeing with a rule forbidding them... Simply because I reported what I have observed in terms of their use in actual practice.

Down here, a TON of people have braced AR-based pistols. And I DO mean a TON. If I go to the local range, there will be MANY people there with them. It would be easier to count who DIDN'T have one.

100% of them are shouldering them. Not 99%. 100%. That's a simple fact of what I've seen with my own eyes.

The other simple fact is that I object to the NFA in its entirety. It is my strongly held and constitutionally-supported position that the 2A affirms our Right to keep and bear ANY and ALL man-portable arms. The NFA should be rescinded.

But, yeah... I've probably seen hundreds of braced pistols in use. I've never seen one used as an actual forearm brace. 100% of them are used as shoulder stocks. And I believe they should be able to use ACTUAL shoulder stocks on them.

Good grief.

Sorry... disagree. The complaint I have seen repeatedly is that they are unable to remove the grid without damaging the surrounding structures... due primarily to difficult ACCESS, especially the bottom / deeper sections.



I'm going to say this, risking pissing off some people (but not really any of the known builders here)... You could give some of the hamfisted "builders" a YEAR, and they'll STILL fuck it up. Yes, I do believe that many are simply in a hurry. And they MIGHT be able to get a better result if they just slowed down. Or not.

Shit, some of these folks can't address the original P80 frames without doing this.
View attachment 10137View attachment 10138View attachment 10139View attachment 10140View attachment 10141View attachment 10142
View attachment 10143

I think you misinterpreted my comments about the braces as an objection to them or agreeing with a rule forbidding them... Simply because I reported what I have observed in terms of their use in actual practice.

Down here, a TON of people have braced AR-based pistols. And I DO mean a TON. If I go to the local range, there will be MANY people there with them. It would be easier to count who DIDN'T have one.

100% of them are shouldering them. Not 99%. 100%. That's a simple fact of what I've seen with my own eyes.

The other simple fact is that I object to the NFA in its entirety. It is my strongly held and constitutionally-supported position that the 2A affirms our Right to keep and bear ANY and ALL man-portable arms. The NFA should be rescinded.

But, yeah... I've probably seen hundreds of braced pistols in use. I've never seen one used as an actual forearm brace. 100% of them are used as shoulder stocks. And I believe they should be able to use ACTUAL shoulder stocks on them.

Heavens to Murgatroyd!

 

[Racer88]

Heavens to Murgatroyd!

I've been collecting those photos! LOL! Some of them are truly.... well... unbelievable. They are often accompanied by the question, "Why won't my P80 build cycle?"

 

[Michele]

Racer u r funny. Those guys making the mistakes you posted simply need a leader to show them the way. They need a copy of tools and their uses. (That’s an enlisted book about tools sir )

You know that if someone uses the wrong tools and goes at it like gangbusters on the channel it’ll look like the shark from jaws had lunch. Same with the bridge frame…gotta give it some tender care, take yer time to get er right.

I mostly agree with @GSW10 on the bridge frames. Although complaints appear to be about this or that….the bottom line- it’s about time /effort. I think I can speak on this since I actually had my hands on the frame and removed said added time consuming blockages. That’s the purpose of them. For ATF satisfaction p80 made hard to do…must take more than 15 minutes to remove

I also think there may be a bit of intermingling of complaints with the sharing methods/ brainstorming.
There’s a big difference between complaints and a working brainstorm session to figure out methods.

I personally think the frame is certainly 100% buildable. I do not have any complaints about it. I shared my experiences with it to help others and myself learn. That’s what brainstorming is about. I find the puzzle invigorating, engaging and fun.

- yes, it’s hard to see and remove the lower the lower area of the TH grid… it takes more time than most would want to expend.
- Instead of using whatever is on hand, take the time to acquire the correct lighting…could see down in there better.
- Space is restricted in the lower area… getting correct size tools will certainly help not to damage the frame. Taking time to slowly remove little by little would be helpful as well but, that’s too time consuming.
- frame gets damaged, yep cuz too lackadaisical on taking the time to protect it.

Yeah…it’s about time it’s about a space …..

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DsJhBn0I9U4

Again, people do not accept change easily. If these were the only frame’s available they would eventually become the norm. Tools, steps and techniques to accomplish it would eventually be found and make it easier to accomplish. Then a new harder frame will come into play cuz more new rules. Before ya know it it’ll be a big block of plastic

 

[USApat]

This place needs a new forum category: "The Wall Of Shame"
A photo gallery for those botched builds. "What not to do".

 

[brian]

One the road and not having time to play with builds. Had anyone seen something like this but maybe with a smaller width/smaller belt length? Was searching for a micro/mini drum sander and this was as close as I could fine. Thinking something similar could be helpful with the new material in the rear rail area.

Amazon

 

[Michele]

Great idea. Most of the ones I looked at are 1/2 belt also saw 3/8. Still to wide. I wouldn’t want to put anything wider than 1/4 “ x1/4 in that space. Are you handy enough to make a DIY ?

 

[Polymer 80 addict]

Update:
Here’s where I am so far. This frame is so beat up, it’s surely not FTQ. I suggest protecting areas to avoid melting them or getting Dremel wear marks. I’m really not sure how I am going to get down into that trigger housing without damaging the frame worse than it already is.

View attachment 9811

Front locking block obstructions were not difficult to remove at all. The back leg area- used the ryobi chisel to cut straight down then cut off from the horizontal platform with my diy 90* hot knife.
View attachment 9817

Front leg area of the locking block I used the ryobi chisel and Dremel diamond straits to clean it out.
View attachment 9816


The locking block fits so far, real test will be after I remove the tabs.
View attachment 9819


Now for the hardest part. Lower section of the trigger housing. I have not come up with a method or technique for this area. It would have been nice if only the upper area had the waffle fins. They go all the way down to the ridge the rail sets on. I currently don’t see anyway to save that platform. This frame is already too far gone to even attempt it.
These are the issues:
1) Very little room. Dremel doesn’t fit down in there without damaging the surrounding areas. I went down as far as I dare with tool extended out all the way. Hot knife damages surrounding area…no room to move.

2) Can’t see down in there. Tools take up all the space, no light or room to see what’s happening in there.
View attachment 9818

Tools used left to right: Drill master and pink grinding bits from harbor freight, x-acto knife, stipple iron 60W turned up to max temp, hot knife 30W turned up to max, ryobi chisel.
View attachment 9812


Dremel bits used.
View attachment 9820

EDIT- I used my M.Mark knock off sander to smooth out the trigger housing. Modded the tool cutting the edge so it would fit in the area.
View attachment 9833

This frame is definitely a challenge. Getting FTQ in the trigger housing area not so easy. I have definitely learned from the mistakes I’ve made. The hot knife is nice it works pretty well. Need the 90* to get a nice looking shelf for the locking block to set on. I also like the electric chisel it cuts fairly quickly in straight lines. I will use both tools on my next frame.

Anyone have ideas to get down into the trigger housing ?

Very awesome. All of it. You're a pioneer.

 

[Harold]

I might as well jump in here with my unsolicited opinion on the matter.

I appreciate that the Polymer 80 company has done a great service to the 2nd amendment and the people of the U.S. with their pioneering effort to make incomplete-and-therefore-not-subject-to-federal-regulation Glock-like polymer pistol frames.

That said, I believe that Polymer 80 is nevertheless open to some legitimate criticism for some of their business practices. I understand that they are in business to make money and I don't have a problem with that, but only within reason. As I see it, some of their earlier frames and parts - starting with the first "80%" polymer pistol frame - had issues that should've been corrected before mass production and sales, IMO. Their attitude (from the beginning) seems to be "well we know the products have some issues but we'll let our intelligent and industrious customers figure it out" or something like that.

Anyway, I didn't buy one of the new frames (yet at least) but as I see it, Polymer 80 has a duty to give prospective customers some kind of an idea as to the effort/skills/tools required to complete one of these frames. Maybe I missed it (and if I did I take some of what I'm saying back), but I glanced at their web site and the web site of Delta Team Tactical and I didn't see any information to that effect at all; no instructions or anything regarding the level of difficulty involved or special tools needed or recommended to complete the new frames.

If I was the CEO of Polymer 80, I would task someone (in house or an outside engineering consultant) with coming up with a few ideas on removing the webbing from the fire control pocket before offering it for sale to general public.

 

[brian]

Great idea. Most of the ones I looked at are 1/2 belt also saw 3/8. Still to wide. I wouldn’t want to put anything wider than 1/4 “ x1/4 in that space. Are you handy enough to make a DIY ?
View attachment 10148

Not really as far as changing the mechanics, though cutting the belt in half to be 1/4 or even smaller might do the trick.

 

[Racer88]

as I see it, Polymer 80 has a duty to give prospective customers some kind of an idea as to the effort/skills/tools required to complete one of these frames. Maybe I missed it (and if I did I take some of what I'm saying back), but I glanced at their web site and the web site of Delta Team Tactical and I didn't see any information to that effect at all; no instructions or anything regarding the level of difficulty involved or special tools needed or recommended to complete the new frames.

The new alphabet "rule" prohibited ANY instructions.

Before the new "rule," they DID have instructions (for the pre-rule, original frame).

I suspect those instructions will be back up on their site (for the original frame) now, since the court injunction against the "rule."

 

[Harold]

The new alphabet "rule" prohibited ANY instructions.

Before the new "rule," they DID have instructions (for the pre-rule, original frame).

I suspect those instructions will be back up on their site (for the original frame) now, since the court injunction against the "rule."

Any instructions provided by anyone, anywhere, in any context, even on a forum like this one?

 

[Michele]

Any instructions provided by anyone, anywhere, in any context, even on a forum like this one?

Yes sir, there are a couple of threads on here with how some of us did the bridge frame. Including this post. I put up a short video on the ryobi carver. There is a list of tools in the resource center.
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[Harold]

Yes sir, there are a couple of threads on here with how some of us did the bridge frame. Including this post. I put up a short video on the ryobi carver. There is a list of tools in the resource center.
MGB is providing live hands on instruction at his university

Freedom Crew University Build School

Hello Patriots, There is big news dropping starting tomorrow , but wanted the crew here to be in the know. Me, P80 Ralph, Rogue Banshee, Shogun WIll, AngrySarge, DLD Dark, Tactical Trash Panda, and Flying Rich have collaborated to build the first of its kind Build College. Folks in our...

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Exactly; which proves that ATF pronouncements can't stop the flow of useful information on the subject, so as a practical matter Polymer 80 could still take an active role in devising tools and techniques to help customers complete their new frames if they were so inclined, IMO.

 

[Michele]

Exactly; which proves that ATF pronouncements can't stop the flow of useful information on the subject, so as a practical matter Polymer 80 could still take an active role in devising tools and techniques to help customers complete their new frames if they were so inclined, IMO.

P80 legally could not provide that information. We here on the forum or MGB U are not named in the ATF document thus…we, not in the 80% manufacturing business, can do as we wish with no consequence as spelled out in the rule.

 

[Racer88]

Any instructions provided by anyone, anywhere, in any context, even on a forum like this one?

The alphabet rule stipulated that the company could NOT include or give out instructions.

Of course, we can do anything we want on this forum. And those experienced builders here who have fiddled with the 76% frames have shared as they are learning themselves.

I just looked, and I don't see the old 80% instructions back on their site, yet.

But I stored them on my computer. I just added them here in the Resource Center. Mind you, this is for the original P80 frame. I would also point you to the MGB videos in the Resource Center.

 

[Harold]

P80 legally could not provide that information. We here on the forum or MGB U are not named in the ATF document thus…we, not in the 80% manufacturing business, can do as we wish with no consequence as spelled out in the rule.

When I look at the text of the ATF letter I don't see any explicit proscription against "instructions" per se. It says this:

"[...] The terms ‘frame’ and ‘receiver’ shall include a partially complete, disassembled, or nonfunctional frame or receiver, including a frame or receiver parts kit, that is designed to or may readily be completed, assembled, restored, or otherwise converted to function as a frame or receiver...
...
When issuing a classification, the Director may consider any associated templates, jigs, molds, equipment, tools, instructions, guides, or marketing materials that are sold, distributed, or possessed with the item or kit, or otherwise made available by the seller or distributor of the item or kit to the purchaser or recipient of the item or kit. [...]"

And then with regard to "readily" it says:

"A process, action, or physical state that is fairly or reasonably efficient, quick, and easy, but not necessarily the most efficient, speediest, or easiest process, action, or physical state. With respect to the classification of firearms, factors relevant in making this determination include the following: (a) Time, i.e., how long it takes to finish the process; (b) Ease, i.e., how difficult it is to do so; (c) Expertise, i.e., what knowledge and skills are required; (d) Equipment, i.e., what tools are required; (e) Parts availability, i.e., whether additional parts are required, and how easily they can be obtained; (f) Expense, i.e., how much it costs; (g) Scope, i.e., the extent to which the subject of the process must be changed to finish it; and -3- (h) Feasibility, i.e., whether the process would damage or destroy the subject of the process or cause it to malfunction."

It seems to me that this pretty much covers everything. So in theory, if the ATF's nonsense is not rejected by the courts, and participants in this forum for example were to come up with tools and techniques that make it "easy" to remove the webbing in the trigger housing pocket, the ATF can make the arbitrary decision that the new frames are now "readily" made into firearms.

IOW they get to basically make up the rules as we go along.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-dec2022-open-letter-impact-final-rule-2021-05f/download