Help! Question on Range Side Berm Height...

[Bobster]

Question on Range Side Berm Height...

I shoot at my club's monthly "Action Pistol" event. It is an "informal" meet which involves shooting steel and is the only time the club allows shooting at the steel plates which are locked up in a shed otherwise. We'll shoot pistols then we'll often push the steel further back and shoot PCCs. Generally, you want to be 10 paces away (30') away from the steel to avoid getting pelted with spalling and even then you'll get the occasional fragment hit. I've had blood drawn on a couple occasions as a spectator and MORE than 30' away--more like 50'. Eye Pro IS essential!

So you can picture what I'm talking about my club consists of a number of outdoor ranges--from left to right:
Rifle Range: 100, 200 and 300yds
Competition Range: 200m
Pistol Range, L-R: 25, 50, 15 and 7yds
Plinking Range: 15 and 35yds
Special Use Range: about 100'

My concern regards the side berm in-between the Plinking and Special Use range. It seems "low" to me compared to an Orlando range I go to. Their berms are probably 15' high or higher. The berm in question is probably not more than 10' high and much lower near the pavilion.



The last couple/few meetings I've brought this up. Especially since they just spent a TON of money on the Competition range including raising the berm between it and the Pistol range. They also put down a bunch of concrete and a larger roof is forthcoming. The Comp range is used for ARA, service rifle, silhouette and other "slow" fire competitions. Coincidentally, all of the club officers shoot in some or all of the aforementioned competitions. The Special Use range is only used for Action Pistol, Defensive Carbine, Hunter Safety and new member qualification so it is the ugly stepchild of ranges... Personally, I'd like to see the SU range get more use to help bring younger members into the club. We had 7 new members join tonight--I'd say half of them were under 40yo which is promising.

After tonight's meeting I brought up the berm issue again with the Treasurer, who mentioned during the meeting that he was unsure how high the side berm should be and if it even needed "fixing" (ie: $). The VP chimed in and said "we have the NRA book (older) and it says the side berms only have to be a minimum of 8'. The Special Use range is at least that". I would have called BS had I known the ACTUAL NRA recommendation for side berms on a steel plate range. "What if spalling enters the plinking range while someone there is putting up a target?" The President then chimes in "if that happens we'll have to limit Action Steel to lead ammo only." Me: "That would effectively shut it down because 95% of the guns we shoot are 9mm!" At that point I determined the Pres was a definite Fudd. I think he was VP when the members voted FOR Action Steel several years ago and was AGAINST it and apparently still is... If I had the time I would run against him in the next election. I KNOW I could round up the support...

QUESTION: What is the NRA recommendation for side berms on a range where steel targets are shot?
I'm looking for an actual specification from the NRA "book" if anyone has it. I'm not looking for the spec for a "target" style range which will understandably be lower. I'm also not looking for an answer pulled from your ass...

 

[Alex]

Some club president. "There will be no shooting on my shooting range!"

This is probably less than helpful but it will give you an idea of where not to look for that spec. Maybe No1 has something from his army shooting ranges that will give you a spec?

 

[Bobster]

This is probably less than helpful but it will give you an idea of where not to look for that spec. Maybe No1 has something from his army shooting ranges that will give you a spec?

Thank you and I have the RSO book but didn't think of looking in it. I guess I need not now...

I DID send an email to range@nrahq.org asking specifically for the info I seek. Hopefully I'll hear back tomorrow. I COULD buy the "range" book or whatever they call it for $60 or $70, I forget how much. They DO have a pdf on thumb drive for $20 but either way I'm not planning on building a range any time soon so don't feel the need the spend ANY money. The next time I see the club house open on a weekend I'll borrow the book the club owns.

And yes, there is a bit of cronyism going on I've been "cautioned" by others to stay out of...

 

[Bobster]

This is about the best pic I have of the berm in question. The 5 plates are stage 1 of one of the events. The majority are 4' high, one is 3', one is 5'. Now figure the grass on top of the berm is probably 3'-4' high. How high would you say the berm is? Keep in mind on the other side of the berm, people will be walking to set up targets on the Plinking range.

 

[Bobster]

Last time I looked into this was last month, I think. I searched "NRA Range Book" and this showed up. I was a little psyched then realized it is from the UK and just about useless here in the US...

 

[no4mk1t]

While I don't have a copy of the manual in question, this is what the internet says the manual says.

According to the NRA Range Source Book, the recommended minimum height for side berms on a range—especially one involving action pistol shooting with steel targets—is generally at least 8 feet. However, this is a baseline, and many clubs and experts recommend higher berms (12–15 feet or more) depending on the range layout, proximity to other shooting bays, and the use of reactive steel targets.

Something to consider.
In your range pic, the distance from the ground to the top of the berm appears to only be about 6'.
But with the targets on posts, the distance from the tallest target to the top of the berm looks to be only about 3-4'. (Hard to tell with the grass on top of the berm.)

So, 3-4' then becomes the effective height of the berm.

Something I have seen a few clubs do is to stack dirt or sand filled Super Sacks up to create a berm without the need of a lot of heavy equipment.
The bags come in different sizes and if you can find a local plant that discards the bags, you may be able to get them for little to nothing.
Level the top of the existing berm with a Bob Cat, and then stack them as needed.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

While I don't have a copy of the manual in question, this is what the internet says the manual says.

According to the NRA Range Source Book, the recommended minimum height for side berms on a range—especially one involving action pistol shooting with steel targets—is generally at least 8 feet. However, this is a baseline, and many clubs and experts recommend higher berms (12–15 feet or more) depending on the range layout, proximity to other shooting bays, and the use of reactive steel targets.

Something to consider.
In your range pic, the distance from the ground to the top of the berm appears to only be about 6'.
But with the targets on posts, the distance from the tallest target to the top of the berm looks to be only about 3-4'. (Hard to tell with the grass on top of the berm.)

So, 3-4' then becomes the effective height of the berm.

Something I have seen a few clubs do is to stack dirt or sand filled Super Sacks up to create a berm without the need of a lot of heavy equipment.
The bags come in different sizes and if you can find a local plant that discards the bags, you may be able to get them for little to nothing.
Level the top of the existing berm with a Bob Cat, and then stack them as needed.

View attachment 33389

The bags are a great idea

 

[Bobster]

While I don't have a copy of the manual in question, this is what the internet says the manual says.

According to the NRA Range Source Book, the recommended minimum height for side berms on a range—especially one involving action pistol shooting with steel targets—is generally at least 8 feet. However, this is a baseline, and many clubs and experts recommend higher berms (12–15 feet or more) depending on the range layout, proximity to other shooting bays, and the use of reactive steel targets.

The bags are a great idea

Thanks for the info. A guy from the NRA Range dept. got back to me today. While he answered a few Emails with pics back and forth, he soon determined that the range will have to be inspected by them to the tune of $750. And that is IF we are NRA-affiliated.

I don't know what affiliation entails but we USED to require NRA membership as a condition of membership of the club. Then some weenie(s) at the county council made the club drop the requirement as a condition of lease renewal. The property is leased from the county (5yr lease).

This is the extent of info he gave me before he started asking for money...

 

[no4mk1t]

Another thing to consider...

When increasing the height of the berm with dirt, the footprint will increase with the height. I'm sure there is a formula for this, but bottom line is if you have to double the height, the footprint will increase substantially. Do you have room for this? A berm dividing two ranges will encroach on the ranges on each side of the berm.

This is where the Super Sacks will help. You can add to the height without increasing the base...up to a point.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

This is the extent of info he gave me before he started asking for money...

This is why I have never been much of a joiner. NRA and HOA are synonymous in my book. I'm a life member and would resign but turns out that's not possible. So I read the magazine every month. Which as far as gun magazines go is pretty good.

Over time, I had enough of the overthinking, self-important dickheads running or officiating matches. I have previously mentioned an RSO from when I lived in GA. Total cock holster. I could outshoot that a-hole blindfolded, standing on one leg. With any gun. Yet he was constantly nattering about my shooting. Too fast, only one gun out at a time, inspecting my ammo, etc. I was certain what really stuck in his craw was the people he trained (he was an instructor of newbs at the range) had terrible form and I would occasionally give them some impromptu coaching. They would say the trainer told them this or that and I would reply that was bad advice.

 

[Bobster]

When increasing the height of the berm with dirt, the footprint will increase with the height.

The berm in question is wide enough to be raised easily, probably 20' or so. I don't know if any tortoise tunnels are there which may affect raisability. We've had to stop shooting and relocate tortoises walking across the range...

I looked at one of the pics from the Orlando range (below) noting they have stacked equipment tires under the berm (in the corner). I'm also noting this particular side berm isn't THAT high. I HAVE been struck with spalling from adjacent ranges here before. They rebuilt another of the ranges last year and it ended up probably 15' high in places. Maybe this one is on the list to be rebuilt.

This is why I have never been much of a joiner...

The NRA had a pay-as-you-go "deal" for Life Membership and I opted to do that back in the 90s. I believe in their/our mission. If you want to be certified by them, you have to be a member. That is fair enough...

But cronyistic embezzlement nearly sunk the NRA. Hopefully things will get better with the new cronies now in place. It was difficult to deal with all the negative cunt guntoobers and others jumping on the slimedia bandwagon putting down the NRA. Narrow-minded assholes not realizing that if the NRA goes, ALL other gun-rights orgs are soon to follow. Then what?

Which as far as gun magazines go is pretty good.

I get the AR mag but was also getting the Shooting Illustrated mag given to me at club meetings. While some of the articles are shared, SI has more of a "contempory" feel to it...

Over time, I had enough of the overthinking, self-important dickheads running or officiating matches.

There is an up-and-coming pretty-shirt kid who shoots some of the matches. I think he is 16 so requires parental supervision. While the kid is fun to watch, his parents will usually run the timer and tablet and are not at all pleasant. They usually do not shoot. I also think they fudge their kid's scores but can't prove it. These are not sanctioned matches so NBD, BUTTT.... Anyhow, as ROs "running" the squad, both parents are assholes. When signing up and choosing my squad, I deliberately do NOT choose the squad with their kid in it...

I can run both the timer and tablet and often do but don't have any problem letting someone else do it or handing off when I shoot. The timer holder is also the main RO and instructs the shooter to load and make ready, standby, make safe, etc. The tablet holder records times transferred from the timer and enters misses, etc. The TH is also responsible for keeping the flow of shooters going and letting them know they are up, "on-deck" or "in-the-hole". The TH also helps the RO look for hits/misses/procedurals etc.

 

[Racer88]

They usually do not shoot. I also think they fudge their kid's scores but can't prove it. These are not sanctioned matches so NBD, BUTTT.... Anyhow, as ROs "running" the squad, both parents are assholes. When signing up and choosing my squad, I deliberately do NOT choose the squad with their kid in it...

I can run both the timer and tablet and often do but don't have any problem letting someone else do it or handing off when I shoot. The timer holder is also the main RO and instructs the shooter to load and make ready, standby, make safe, etc. The tablet holder records times transferred from the timer and enters misses, etc. The TH is also responsible for keeping the flow of shooters going and letting them know they are up, "on-deck" or "in-the-hole". The TH also helps the RO look for hits/misses/procedurals etc.

Sounds like fun.... NOT. I've told my experience with NRA High Power matches here before. And it turned me off from ALL competitions. This story above confirms my disdain for shooting competitions. I want nothing to do with it. A bunch of busybody Karens / Chads running an event that takes literally all day (and then some for the drive time) for me to fire maybe 60 - 80 rounds. Fuck that shit.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I decided long ago to focus on getting the very best training I could find. Instead of spending money and time at matches.

Match competition is expensive if you take it seriously. My logic was I was going to acquire far better skills learning offensive and defensive techniques from experts vs competing with some random big bellied dude with side burns and suspenders.

I competed on and off for a few years but it didn’t float my boat for the reasons mentioned. The match officials and competitors weren’t all bad but the dickheads really stood out.

I don’t regret my decision. I spent a fortune on training. Precision, vehicles, shoot house, simulations, edged weapons, krav maga. Shotguns, pistols , sub guns. And so on. And also had some excellent training courtesy of Uncle Sam.

Even when I played high school and college ball I didn’t give a shit about trophies. Guns, baseball, golf… I compete with myself. Improving my skills. If one is reasonably fit physically, Being good at any of that is 80% mental.

In simple terms I’ve spent a lot of time beating myself.

 

[Bobster]

A bunch of busybody Karens / Chads running an event that takes literally all day (and then some for the drive time) for me to fire maybe 60 - 80 rounds.

I've not (yet) had that problem other than the aforementioned parents. Most everyone in the unsanctioned events I attend are good people out to have a challenging, but GOOD time and we do. We all know how to move along and I'm usually driving home by 12:30pm. It takes me 40min to get there, maybe 50 to get home (traffic). 5-6 stages with about 150rds used. It IS frustrating to get "stuck" behind a slower group and having to wait for them to shoot. But rest assured, there will be a lot of light-hearted talk of urgency to them on our part.

But the shooting HAS to be done safely and I've seen many people DQ'd for muzzle sweeps past 180°, falling down or unholstering while not shooting/at a safe table. Some of the "regular" guys who are club members have been DQ'd and took it like men and still hung out to help take down the stages.

Even I'VE been DQ'd once. It was a Zombie match and I was in the old van with ports on one side and I had had a GREAT run! The RO watched me unload and make clear and I was going to reholster once I got out of the confines of the van. But while holding the pistol on top of the slide I crossed 180 and was DQ'd. I knew I had done wrong and figured it was a rite of passage. While I could have left at that time, I stayed with my squad and helped take the last stage down. My dot and her BF had driven there separately and were also shooting so I wanted to watch them anyway. The aforementioned father was the RO not that a different RO would have changed the resulting DQ...

I decided long ago to focus on getting the very best training I could find. Instead of spending money and time at matches.

Match competition is expensive if you take it seriously.

In simple terms I’ve spent a lot of time beating myself.

Had I got into "competitive" shooting decades ago, I probably would do the training thing. But I'm older now and probably NEVER going to rank anywhere near the top of ANY category. Plus training costs money and time and for what ulterior benefit? I've always been a marksman with both pistols and rifles but shooting steel is relatively new to me. The last monthly match was the 2yr anniversary for me and I've only missed one match because it was pouring and I didn't want to have to detail clean and dry my gun when I got home. Plus I didn't want to get soaked!

That said, in 2yrs my gun-handling skills have greatly increased! When I first started, I was happy to not place last in a group of 50+ shooters. Now, I hope to be in the top third or at least the top half. I have 4 guns I use and they all have the potential to perform better than I am capable of. But the main thing is I have fun!

I don't have a lot of money in any of the guns--maybe $2000 TOTAL? Some of shooters I do better than have more that in just ONE gun. My holster rig is also budget-based--no Safariland here... To shoot a match in Orlando is about $10 in gas, $10 in tolls and $15 in .22LR or $30 if I shoot 9mm. I'll usually help setup so the match fees of $20 are waived.

There are monthly IDPA matches in Titusville I've been encouraged to attend by members of my club. "It's ONLY 15 more minutes down the road from the road to our club!" They start back up in the autumn so maybe I'll give it a try in a month or two.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

I've not (yet) had that problem other than the aforementioned parents. Most everyone in the unsanctioned events I attend are good people out to have a challenging, but GOOD time and we do. We all know how to move along and I'm usually driving home by 12:30pm. It takes me 40min to get there, maybe 50 to get home (traffic). 5-6 stages with about 150rds used. It IS frustrating to get "stuck" behind a slower group and having to wait for them to shoot. But rest assured, there will be a lot of light-hearted talk of urgency to them on our part.

But the shooting HAS to be done safely and I've seen many people DQ'd for muzzle sweeps past 180°, falling down or unholstering while not shooting/at a safe table. Some of the "regular" guys who are club members have been DQ'd and took it like men and still hung out to help take down the stages.

Even I'VE been DQ'd once. It was a Zombie match and I was in the old van with ports on one side and I had had a GREAT run! The RO watched me unload and make clear and I was going to reholster once I got out of the confines of the van. But while holding the pistol on top of the slide I crossed 180 and was DQ'd. I knew I had done wrong and figured it was a rite of passage. While I could have left at that time, I stayed with my squad and helped take the last stage down. My dot and her BF had driven there separately and were also shooting so I wanted to watch them anyway. The aforementioned father was the RO not that a different RO would have changed the resulting DQ...



Had I got into "competitive" shooting decades ago, I probably would do the training thing. But I'm older now and probably NEVER going to rank anywhere near the top of ANY category. Plus training costs money and time and for what ulterior benefit? I've always been a marksman with both pistols and rifles but shooting steel is relatively new to me. The last monthly match was the 2yr anniversary for me and I've only missed one match because it was pouring and I didn't want to have to detail clean and dry my gun when I got home. Plus I didn't want to get soaked!

That said, in 2yrs my gun-handling skills have greatly increased! When I first started, I was happy to not place last in a group of 50+ shooters. Now, I hope to be in the top third or at least the top half. I have 4 guns I use and they all have the potential to perform better than I am capable of. But the main thing is I have fun!

I don't have a lot of money in any of the guns--maybe $2000 TOTAL? Some of shooters I do better than have more that in just ONE gun. My holster rig is also budget-based--no Safariland here... To shoot a match in Orlando is about $10 in gas, $10 in tolls and $15 in .22LR or $30 if I shoot 9mm. I'll usually help setup so the match fees of $20 are waived.

There are monthly IDPA matches in Titusville I've been encouraged to attend by members of my club. "It's ONLY 15 more minutes down the road from the road to our club!" They start back up in the autumn so maybe I'll give it a try in a month or two.

I'd say the difference is learning to shoot well under pressure. A match is not pressure. There is no threat. It's a clock and paper circles. That's all good... but it in no way replicates a defensive scenario. IDPA makes an honest effort to replicate some of the most common defensive techniques, but it's still not training.

Does anyone need to train like they are an operator? Not really. The chances of a gunfight are pretty slim for Joe Citizen. I did it because it was my job. And I had strong feelings about not getting killed. There's nothing wrong with competing, as long as the individual who engages in it doesn't imagine himself being ready for the ultimate match, which is somebody trying to kill you. Often when you least expect it. Everybody knows the Elmer Fudd who brags his head is always on a swivel. Right. He's the first one to piss his pants, shoot a bystander, or get shot. Situational awareness is not being on edge. It's disciplined, subconscious observation. It only comes thru training.

I'm in excellent physical shape but admit that I am approaching being too long in the tooth to be rolling out of a vehicle onto the ground then shooting the ankles of mannequins, navigating difficult terrain with a full loadout or getting shot or stabbed (airsoft, rubber knives of course) by a former SpecOps dude in a dimly lit CQB shoot house.

It's like riding a bike. Once mastered you never forget how to do it. Unless you are Joe Biden.

I would like to return to Gunsite and run thru a few courses as a sort of refresher. The shotgun track @Alex went on would be one of those.

 

[Alex]

I'm mulling over the idea of going back to Gunsite in the fall to take the 250 pistol class. Several of the guys I shoot Action Pistol with have taken the class and are quite good, even when shooting plain Jane Glocks.

Another one of my fellow revolver aficionados is trying to twist my arm into going to the Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup, it sounds like a really good time. This weekend's Action Pistol theme is revolvers so I bet I will hear more about it.

2024 Pat Rogers Memorial Revolver Roundup Debrief – RevolverGuy.Com

revolverguy.com

 

[Bongo Lewi]

even when shooting plain Jane Glocks

What? You are saying those plain Jane Glock guys are good - in spite of the grip angle? How on Earth can that be?