I just remembered why I have never been a fan of institutional pistol matches

Bongo Lewi

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I signed up for a pistol match. I didn't know what the format of the match was going to be but I thought what the Hell. It will be fun. I haven't competed for a while.

Allow me to be intentionally sarcastic. Here's what the game was:

(non holster shooters get a 1 second penalty)

Shoot 5 plates from the holster
No more than five rounds in your mag (so if you miss, you have to reload)
Holster weapon and the do the funky chicken
Repeat from the beginning - three times

From the holster, five rounds to the body (full size silhouette target at 10 yards)
Change mags (mandatory)
Five more rounds to the bidy
Change mags (mandatory)
Four rounds to the body and one to the head
Recite the Lord's Prayer backwards

From the holster Shoot five stationary plates
Without stopping, shoot the four reactive plates
Reload and shoot the five stationary plates again
Only ten rounds per mag allowed, reload and continue fire until all plates hit

There were a few ringers there who obviously do a lot of match shooting. But the majority were just regular guys who want to improve their shooting skills and have some fun. The officials were micromanaging everybody and most of the guys there had a tough time remembering all the fucking rules about how many rounds you can have in the gun and when mandatory reload was necessary. Some people had 1911's with 9 rounds others had striker guns with 12-20 round mags.

These complicated scenarios are a fucking buzz kill. As if all this over complicated, do this do that, count to five, cut a fart, and all that extraneous activity were not enough to piss me off, I decided to shoot my full size Prodigy and I sucked. I could not have shot worse wearing somebody else's eyeglasses. I haven't shot it much and this was the first time I chose it for a match. The gun performed fine. It was all me. I chose a handgun I have not spent much time with and it showed.

There is tactical training and there's competition. I dont like commingling the two. That's what many of these IDPA/IPSC and other organized matches seem to try and accomplish. I don't want to have to memorize and execute a routine like a recipe for a fucking soufflé. I want to test my speed and accuracy in a match. Not be told after 9 rounds I have to change mags when I have 11 left. Some of the less experienced guys were getting paused by the officials and given lectures or guidance at the firing line. I could see some of them felt embarrassed. One corrected me for flipping on my safety when holstering. It's a habit I have no desire to change.

When I go a range I just want to be left the fuck alone to practice my shooting.
 
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This post only confirms my opinions about competition after my own limited experience ("high power" rifle matches).

I just like to shoot. People who compete are more interested in catching you breaking arcane rules than they are actually shooting.

I want to see video of the "funky chicken" on the range, though! ;)
 
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Ummmm.... They admonished you for USING the safety???
Yea. It's a habit. My thumb enables the safety before the gun is back in the holster. Every time. it's second nature now. And the reverse is also habitual. I disengage the safety as I'm clearing the leather (or kydex).

If the gun has a manual safety, my thumb knows it's there.

The dude tells me there's an appropriate time to engage the safety and I got it wrong. I'd put money on this dude has never, ever been in any sort of combat situation, involved in a gunfight, or ever carried a gun for a living. He's someone who has studied these matters. :rolleyes:

My reaction:
View: https://youtu.be/ALPaI9gqgjE?si=2xgv_aaCS0rUZOp5
 
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Yea. It's a habit. My thumb enables the safety before the gun is back in the holster. Every time. it's second nature now. And the reverse is also habitual. I disengage the safety as I'm clearing the leather (or kydex).

If the gun has a manual safety, my thumb knows it's there.
So, pray tell... what was their objection to that??
 
So, pray tell... what was their objection to that??
He thought I should engage the safety before lowering the gun. I asked.... Was my finger on the trigger? He said no. I just said... Ok then. Thanks for the tip.
 
This post only confirms my opinions about competition after my own limited experience ("high power" rifle matches).

I just like to shoot. People who compete are more interested in catching you breaking arcane rules than they are actually shooting.

I want to see video of the "funky chicken" on the range, though! ;)
Navel-lint inspectors who get off on their control of you and their asinine snobbery. Pfft. No thanks. Start handing out nun habits so they can all be mother superiors...
 
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The guy in charge was OK, friendly. The other a dick. I get the need to enforce strict safety rules. I wish they could just stick to that and not nitpick. It's the nature of some people who choose to be match officials. It's the HOA of guns. :)

I also dread the unnecessarily complicated match gymnastics. It's not a rehearsal for reality. Most defensive gunfights are over in a minute or less. Of course you should practice reloading and making that quick. But to me that's a training exercise, not a task an average gun owner should be learning in a match.

The guy who 'designed' this match was a 1911 shooter who was 80 years old if he was a day. So I know where the 9 round limitation came from.

Add to the fact I was pissed about my own shooting performance. I want those three hours of my life back. One of the senior members could see I was not happy so he asked me for feedback. I told him I would take this same group of guys (excluding the ringers) and do a trianing session for a couple of hours to run them thru the paces of this match and get rid of the wacky round count limitation thing. The match should be about elapsed time and how many rounds fired to hit all the targets. Have advanced matches for people who love the gymnastics. That's like two people at this range.
 
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Imagine going bowling and the match rule is you can only take out three pins but have to throw the ball three times. Some people fucking love complexity. I used to see this all the time when I was in engineering. Some brilliant, booksmart guys who graduated with a 4.0 average (way better than me) who if asked to design a can opener would come up with a plan for a machine that cost $10,000 to make.
 
Imagine going bowling and the match rule is you can only take out three pins but have to throw the ball three times. Some people fucking love complexity. I used to see this all the time when I was in engineering. Some brilliant, booksmart guys who graduated with a 4.0 average (way better than me) who if asked to design a can opener would come up with a plan for a machine that cost $10,000 to make.
Nail hit squarely on the head.
 
Imagine going bowling and the match rule is you can only take out three pins but have to throw the ball three times. Some people fucking love complexity. I used to see this all the time when I was in engineering. Some brilliant, booksmart guys who graduated with a 4.0 average (way better than me) who if asked to design a can opener would come up with a plan for a machine that cost $10,000 to make.
1762636469177.png
 
A couple guys at my club set up a "Defensive Carbine" match that runs every 5th Saturday when there is one. They have that mag-change thing going. :rolleyes: Paper targets using any kind/caliber of carbine 18" or less. The first pair of targets are about 10' away: shoot 3 on each, change mag, then 2ea, then 1ea for a total of 12rds out of 2 mags. :rolleyes: Then change mag again and walk over to another pair of targets set about 30' away: 10rds on one, change mag then 10rds on the other with opposite shoulder/side, then change mag and go over a target about 100' away and shoot 10 at that. So that's 5 mag changes for 42rds. ;) I'm not really complaining because I got the best time/score the last time they ran it. :cool: But I did inquire why so many mag changes and "it is for practice"... :rolleyes: The third match is the 29th of this month. I think I'll give everyone a chance and use the iron-sight M-forgery this time... :)

Orlando has their Action Steel matches which are usually straightforward. The two guys who usually set it up have been away frequently for PRS shooting and the other guys will use the setups for the "Summer Speed League" which makes for a quick match. The usual guys will incorporate weak-hand shooting, mag changes, place the steels blocking other steels so only a sliver is showing or incorporate "kill" or "no shoot" plates. And other potentially frustrating shit like that. :rolleyes: I dread being first on the complicated stages because I seldom have a good showing and all eyes are on me to see how it is done. :(

The Zombie matches in Orlando happen every 5th Sunday and you want to talk about complicated stages! :rolleyes: The attached shows a typical stage and there will be six stages, usually.

stage4a.jpg stage4b.jpg
 
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A couple guys at my club set up a "Defensive Carbine" match that runs every 5th Saturday when there is one. They have that mag-change thing going. :rolleyes: Paper targets using any kind/caliber of carbine 18" or less. The first pair of targets are about 10' away: shoot 3 on each, change mag, then 2ea, then 1ea for a total of 12rds out of 2 mags. :rolleyes: Then change mag again and walk over to another pair of targets set about 30' away: 10rds on one, change mag then 10rds on the other with opposite shoulder/side, then change mag and go over a target about 100' away and shoot 10 at that. So that's 5 mag changes for 42rds. ;) I'm not really complaining because I got the best time/score the last time they ran it. :cool: But I did inquire why so many mag changes and "it is for practice"... :rolleyes: The third match is the 29th of this month. I think I'll give everyone a chance and use the iron-sight M-forgery this time... :)

Orlando has their Action Steel matches which are usually straightforward. The two guys who usually set it up have been away frequently for PRS shooting and the other guys will use the setups for the "Summer Speed League" which makes for a quick match. The usual guys will incorporate off-hand shooting, mag changes, place the steels blocking other steels so only a sliver is showing or incorporate "kill" or "no shoot" plates. And other potentially frustrating shit like that. :rolleyes: I dread being first on the complicated stages because I seldom have a good showing and all eyes are on me to see how it is done. :(

The Zombie matches in Orlando happen every 5th Sunday and you want to talk about complicated stages! :rolleyes: The attached shows a typical stage and there will be six stages, usually.

View attachment 36180 View attachment 36181
You just described my personal gun nightmare. Some guys think this is fun. I do not. I admit being cynical. I think it's because I have done some reloading while running, and shooting from cover when multiple targets were shooting back with real bullets trying to kill me. You don't reload until you hear a click and no bang. There's no counting going on. Or some fat guy chasing you with a timer.

They say it's for practice...? Memorizing a script is playing Army. Not practice. It in no way simulates reality. My opinion. Gunfighting is chaos.

There was a guy who stood out at this match I described. Before he was up, he was off to the side doing a sort of Tai Chi thing. Kind of like a guy that's playing air guitar. Making all the moves and transitions from one stage to another with no gun. Just pretending. I thought to myself.. What a pretentious tool. He did OK in the match, but winning something like this is like winning a game of Monopoly. It doesn't fucking matter and you are not a hero when you win a game. To me, Being on a leaderboard is a dubious goal.

I've never been a hero, but I get great self-satisfaction out of not being dead.
 
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There was a guy who stood out at this match I described. Before he was up, he was off to the side doing a sort of Tai Chi thing. Kind of like a guy that's playing air guitar. Making all the moves and transitions from one stage to another with no gun. Just pretending.
Lena likes to do this in her videos. 🤔 I do a walk-through occasionally when the squad moves to a new stage before we start shooting. Visualizing point of aim through a window or where the gun will be transferred to the other hand/shoulder, if necessary. As the stages take 20-30rds, there may be a mag change involved and I like to plan when/where I will do it, usually during a transition. And especially if I'm one of the first shooters. I'd rather drop a mag with a few left and insert a full mag without having to manipulate the slide. If I'm smart, I'll throw the old mag in the dump pouch in case I need it later. :eek: ;) I could be lazy and use a 33rd-er but where is the challenge in that?

I agree that some of the requirements like mag changes or chanting a fun phrase may not transfer over to real life but the gun-handling certainly does. Drawing from a holster and aiming quickly, shooting while moving, clearing/diagnosing jams all could have real-world application and consequence. 🤔

Regarding the "safety-off" bit, I know the ranges I shoot at want the hammer down/striker relaxed before you holster the gun. Since you can't have the safety on with the hammer dropped on a 1911/2011, I think that is why they gave you grief...
 
I went to one local shooting match one time only to observe. I just sat back and watched, noticing the whole "HOA of gun club" ordeal described. I wanted to see if it was worth doing and participating as a sort of practice for, as mentioned, an actual live fire fight. I saw there was no actual practice there. Its simply "drag racing with guns". Throughout the match, guys kept asking me if I was going to shoot. I constantly had to tell them no, and kept having to mention that it "wasn't my style of shooting" and I would enjoy watching but didnt feel the need to participate.
 
I hear where you are coming from. The games they play interfere with your game of not getting dead. A lot of people never get to draw and shoot from the holster because of range rules. They never get to shoot rapidly at targets, never get to shift to a new target. It's kind of fun for them. There is always someone that will take it to a ridiculous level with fancy gear and private dancer routines to prep.

I did one of these types of matches last summer. I grabbed whatever pistol, whatever holster, used my left pocket for a mag holder and a DeWalt tool bag to carry my crap in. I scored it the middle of the pack overall of 30 shooters that day. Near the top on some of the stages. Lower on a couple of stages. I had some penalty points assigned that I don't recall "earning". Maybe some of the regulars chirped in the ear of the score keepers. New guy hazing perhaps. One penalty was for a miss when I know it was a clean hit because it was one shot only to hit the target and I hit it. It was fun overall and I got to draw from the holster which is strictly forbidden at my regular range. Considering many there did this weekly, I don't think I made an ass of myself. I might do it again just for the fun scenarios they come up with. I'm not buying any fancy gear, I out shot a lot of the gear whores with multi thousand dollar pistol rigs. Money spent on more ammo and practice would be more worthwhile.

As an exercise to get you out of your element and maybe learn to recognize threats you never thought of, any exposure is good exposure. Take what you can from it. I've been in my profession for 40 years. I still look out for something new to learn every day. If you are looking there is usually something there to learn. Then again, the HOA Karens might have caused me to pack up and excuse myself.
 
Those complicated rule stages suck if you are scorekeeper too. I have actually seen shooters finish one of those complication situations in negative point territory. 🕳

Reloading during pauses in a gunfight is part of what they teach at Gunsite.

There was a fellow in my shotgun class who was old and bent from a hard life in Alabama local police and a few other things but as sweet and gentlemanly as a Southerner can be. Looked like somebody who a punk kid would pick first to rob. Like a stiff wind could blow him over and he would need help to get back up. He had used a shotgun daily for 30 years and trained with it throughout his career like his life depended on it...

There is one range we shot called the Urban Scrambler. You move staight down a road engaging targets from cover, such as a car or a tree trunk or a doorframe standing with a rickety door swinging in the wind. There were 7 of these spots to engage sometimes multiple targets and if you are good at math that means you have to reload in the midst of it. Which is easy with a shotgun, so it is not exactly apples to oranges since you can keep your gun up and on target ready to fire while loading if the situation is that dangerous.

Me, with my gun gaming experience did it like there was a guy with a timer following me. Find cover, find targets, blamblamblam, then run to the next cover while doing my best violin reloading. Blamblamblam and repeat. I did fairly well for that kind of shooting.

Alabama was next. At the first target he does the same, blamblamblam. He was fast and accurate. Everything that followed was completely different. After verifying he had hit all the targets presented at that point he lowered himself back into the cover, did not move anything but his head which was on a slow, deliberate swivel while reloading his gun and shell card back up to full capacity. Then while keeping his head on a swivel and the gun at low ready he shuffled to the next cover. He was not fast or agile but he did not allow himself to be an easy target while moving from cover to cover. Then blamblamblam, swivelschnickschnickschnick, shuffleswivelshuffle, blamblamblam. Rinse and repeat.

It was obvious who had survived a career where some people's lives depend upon your actions while other people want to kill you, and who learned about shooting from playing gun games. Those classes are great but sometimes I get my epiphany from watching a student like Alabama do his thing.
 
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Lena likes to do this in her videos. 🤔 I do a walk-through occasionally when the squad moves to a new stage before we start shooting. Visualizing point of aim through a window or where the gun will be transferred to the other hand/shoulder, if necessary. As the stages take 20-30rds, there may be a mag change involved and I like to plan when/where I will do it, usually during a transition. And especially if I'm one of the first shooters. I'd rather drop a mag with a few left and insert a full mag without having to manipulate the slide. If I'm smart, I'll throw the old mag in the dump pouch in case I need it later. :eek: ;) I could be lazy and use a 33rd-er but where is the challenge in that?

I agree that some of the requirements like mag changes or chanting a fun phrase may not transfer over to real life but the gun-handling certainly does. Drawing from a holster and aiming quickly, shooting while moving, clearing/diagnosing jams all could have real-world application and consequence. 🤔

Regarding the "safety-off" bit, I know the ranges I shoot at want the hammer down/striker relaxed before you holster the gun. Since you can't have the safety on with the hammer dropped on a 1911/2011, I think that is why they gave you grief...
I don't want to leave the impression that a walk thru of a stage is pointless. Knowing what you have to do to navigate the stage is important if you expect to place. Or just get thru it with no penalty. This, on the other hand, is ridiculous.

Martial Arts Kick GIF by Shoreline Tai Chi

I also have no issue with the shooter deciding to drop a mag with a couple rounds left in it to improve his time for the upcoming stage. What I don't care for is having a handgun with 20 rounds in it and being told you have to dump the mag after five rounds - just because. Or nine because that's what grandpa's gun holds. It's fucking stupid.

I think this springs from the habit of some people to overcomplicate everything. As @bkbrno hinted, it gives people who like to play Army a rare chance to draw and fire. That gives them a boner. I can do that all day long at home. So maybe that's why I find handgun match play tedious. I do a few of the common drills 2-3 times a week and that's been my habit for a long time.

I have good gear but I go out of my way to not walk around the range like peacock.

I differentiate these things as separate activities, each with a specific purpose.
  • Training - Centers on expert instruction. Learning new techniques, tactics.
  • Drills - you practicing on your own to improve accuracy and speed.
  • Matches - Gameplay to determine how you stack up against other shooters.

Most of my somewhat contrarian philosophy about matches is based on the fact I don't give a flying fuck how I measure up to other shooters. I pay attention to my timing and accuracy - and know what's fast and on target - and what isn't. Like golf... I'd rather play by myself and concentrate on my score. I don't give a shit about anybody else's score.
  • Mozambique - two shots from the draw, center mass one head, 7-10 yards
  • Bill drill - five shots center mass, rapid fire, 7-10 yards, strong hand, then both hands
  • Pairs - two shots on each plate as fast as possible (3-5 plates is ideal)
If you want to practice and speed up your reloads, put two rounds in each mag and shoot pairs

3 Gun or 2 Gun... whole 'nuther thing. My preference for these matches was reloading is up to you. When done with the pistol you holster it and move to the next stage/weapon. Hopefully, there's no official asking you while you are moving to verify the handgun is safe and secure. Because in the real world, there is no fat guy with a timer dispensing advice. In the real world, I am reholstering cocked and locked. I'll empty the pipe and drop the hammer after the ambulance arrives for the other guy. Or I exit the area, leaving him for the vultures. :)

To @Alex's point, shotgun is a different routine. Loading and being quick about it is part of the game. It's also a hard skill to learn. Shotgunning, you have to start out doing it slow and focus on technique vs. obsessing about time. Your speed will improve as you develop good habits and muscle memory. I can load two shells in one swift motion. I can do four but I tend to fumble a shell or two more frequently when I try that.
 
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I went to one local shooting match one time only to observe. I just sat back and watched, noticing the whole "HOA of gun club" ordeal described. I wanted to see if it was worth doing and participating as a sort of practice for, as mentioned, an actual live fire fight. I saw there was no actual practice there. Its simply "drag racing with guns". Throughout the match, guys kept asking me if I was going to shoot. I constantly had to tell them no, and kept having to mention that it "wasn't my style of shooting" and I would enjoy watching but didnt feel the need to participate.
You are a wise man. :)
 
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