I guess we're back to ammo panic / shortage.

[Racer88]

The insured are the schlub who accidentally shoots you at the range, or the road rager who stupidly gets out of the car with his handgun and discharges it causing damage to property or personal injury.

But are those "true accidents?" By even our OWN culture's lexicon and definition, those aren't accidents. Those are properly termed "negligent discharges." And actually... the road rager example is definitely not an "accident," and not even negligent. It's criminal use of a firearm.

You can bet your sweet bippy that the inscos will do the same and not pay. They won't pay for negligence. Negligence is willful. And they definitely won't pay for a road-rager who draws his weapon in anger.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

But are those "true accidents?" By even our OWN culture's lexicon and definition, those aren't accidents. Those are properly termed "negligent discharges." You can bet your sweet bippy that the inscos will do the same and not pay. They won't pay for negligence. Negligence is willful.

True. But actuaries don't factor in culture. They dont care. No car accident where one is negligent… distracted, angry, or even intoxicated has any bearing other than how often it happens and if the insured or those who request to be insured have no prior history of doing that. Gun owners are largely a good risk. Most are responsible.

Health care… different dynamic. Based on your health history, they can approximate when you are going to die and from what. It’s an imperfect science but getting better all the time.

Liability is a lot simpler. Mine is a bit more complicated because it involves armed security. We had ERGO for a while but switched to one that specializes in service related businesses that have armed staff. They offer firearms liability and assault and battery coverage - just in case some perpetrator gets their ass kicked a bit more vigorously than normal. We were sued when one of our crew repelled someone who attempted to throw an unknown liquid onto one of our corporate exec clients. She was knocked unconscious. Turns out she had a boyfriend that her wealthy husband didn't know about. And a prenup. For some reason her lawyer withdrew the complaint.

Have I mentioned we do investigative services?

I'm not trying to make a case for insurance companies. Just saying there is one. Risk is statistically based. The probability of nothing ever occurring with a policyholder is pretty favorable.

 

[Racer88]

True. But actuaries don't factor in culture. They dont care.

Actuaries just produce the data. They're mathematicians, not policy makers. They don't create the exceptions or other policy points.

You know as well as I do that inscos are laser-focused on finding ways to not pay claims. There's NO WAY they're paying for negligent or criminal use of guns. Guns don't just "go off" accidentally. You know that. Someone has to intentionally pull the trigger. Negligence by an UNTRAINED citizen?? Or a criminal road-rager??? You think they're paying for that? Dude, I know you're not that naive.

 

[Bongo Lewi]

You keep bringing up criminal activity, which has nothing to do with any of this. A tort is a civil wrong, other than a breach of contract, that causes harm or loss to another person, resulting in legal liability for the person who committed the act. Tort law aims to provide compensation to the injured party and deter harmful behavior.

Liability insurance IS about compensating damages and it includes acts of poor judgment and negligence. Or accidents.

The gun community does repeat often that there are no accidents, only negligence. I agree but gun culture has no bearing on any of this.

You know who gives a shit what the gun community calls something? Nobody. Liability is largely about people fucking up. You accidentally drop a tree on your neighbors house and kill their housekeeper. That’s negligence. Doing it on purpose, that’s criminal. Getting sued for it? That’s civil.

Again, insurance has nothing to do with criminal law. Zero.

The State rests.

 

[Racer88]

You keep bringing up criminal activity, which has nothing to do with any of this. A tort is a civil wrong, other than a breach of contract, that causes harm or loss to another person, resulting in legal liability for the person who committed the act. Tort law aims to provide compensation to the injured party and deter harmful behavior.

Liability insurance IS about compensating damages and it includes acts of poor judgment and negligence. Or accidents.

The gun community does repeat often that there are no accidents, only negligence. I agree but gun culture has no bearing on any of this.

You know who gives a shit what the gun community calls something? Nobody. Liability is largely about people fucking up. You accidentally drop a tree on your neighbors house and kill their housekeeper. That’s negligence. Doing it on purpose, that’s criminal. Getting sued for it? That’s civil.

Again, insurance has nothing to do with criminal law. Zero.

The State rests.

I was referring to your example of the road-rager with a gun. That's criminal... not an accident.

Also... getting shot by another person at the range is not an accident. It's negligence. Gross negligence.

 

[brian]

The gov't can "require" gun owners to "get insurance" all they want. But the product literally doesn't exist.

Not debating the insanity of what IL is pursuing, the govt does mandate Health insurance and many states require auto insurance. Both have "uninsurable" people who get policies via high risk pools or other avenue and have a government component. I believe the state of FL backs or sort of underwrites (may not be the right term, but inb concept) Citizens as a last resort for home owners insurance. Not apples to apples, just pointing out govt involvement in insurance mandates.

Point 1 is that IL lawmakers know very well such a policy does not currently exist and as such is a back door gun ban that even if overruled will take years to get to SCOTUS.

Point 2 is that IL lawmakers may, behind the scenes, be planning some way of launching such a policy to make their cronies rich. I am sure it could be written with so many clauses that it'd never have to pay and yet would rake in millions from the mandate. The state insurance board would oversee it all, wink wink. Just because it doesn't exist now, doesn't mean it can't be created and just be a scam.

I was referring to your example of the road-rager with a gun. That's criminal... not an accident.

True, though you look at things logically (that's a compliment not an insult). Our legal system is so screwed up with excuses of "temporary insanity" and "crimes of passion" and "involuntary this and that", especially in Blue states not to mention so many folks uneducated about firearms (from law makers to prosecutors to defense attorneys to jury pools) that logic and fact doesn't always adhere.

 

[Racer88]

the govt does mandate Health insurance

Incorrect. Not true. They tried to. But that was shitcanned. There is no requirement for health insurance. Ask me how I know!

many states require auto insurance.

To drive on PUBLIC roads, yes. I believe all states require it... again... ONLY if you want to drive on public roads. If you have vehicles that remain on private property... no insurance needed.

If you have a loan on your car, the lender will also require you to have insurance.

I believe the state of FL backs or sort of underwrites (may not be the right term, but inb concept) Citizens as a last resort for home owners insurance. Not apples to apples, just pointing out govt involvement in insurance mandates.

Ah, but the state does NOT mandate homeowner's insurance. Your MORTGAGE company usually does. But if your house is paid off... no insurance required by any entity.

And yes... the state of Florida HAD to step in for those folks with mortgages but no options for the insurance required by the mortgage. Otherwise most of the people in the state would default on their mortgages.... a financial disaster that would be.

 

[brian]

Incorrect. Not true. They tried to. But that was shitcanned. There is no requirement for health insurance. Ask me how I know!

Not at the federal level, but some states such as New Jersey do.

 

[Racer88]

Not at the federal level, but some states such as New Jersey do.

Haha... well... NJ is a country all its own, eh? You can't even pump your own gas there... Or own hollow point ammo, if I recall. I've never understood why anyone would willingly live there. Same for NY, CA, MD, IL, MA.

 

[no4mk1t]

Haha... well... NJ is a country all its own, eh? You can't even pump your own gas there... Or own hollow point ammo, if I recall. I've never understood why anyone would willingly live there. Same for NY, CA, MD, IL, MA.

Let's not encourage any of them to move here, OK?